IL2 mod 1943 Flaps

[WWDarkdiz]

I had recently posted here in the 4.502 update topic about the flaps on the IL2 mod 1943.  I got a reply on the IL2 Forum from -Ded-Rapidus (he is a tester) about it is a cleaning flaps function?  WHAT is a cleaning flaps function? Makes no sense to me.  Even on a Russian aircraft.  Here is what I replied, perhaps some folks could test this as well (I know, flying an IL2 is like dating someone's ugly sister, but hey, sometimes we all gotta take one for the team...)

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OK, here goes (this SO reminds me of explaining un-serviceabilities in detail to the maintenance tech on the ramp...)

After MANY test functioning of the flaps for this issue, I offer the following:

All tests done using the keyboard, joystick was NOT used.  AC was parked, engine not running.

There are 2 ways to cycle the flaps in this case, tapping the control, or holding the control (in my case LSHF f retracts the flaps, LCTL f extends the flaps).  Both will activate the function but with slightly different outcomes.

Starting with the flaps in the fully retracted (up) position, if the extend function is held, the flaps will lower to the full down position.  The flap lever in the cockpit reacts normally (goes full fwd), and the wing indicator on the left wing indicates full down, tech chat indicates flaps released.  All is good, this is the expected behaviour.

From the flaps fully retracted position, if the extend function is tapped, the flaps will extend to the 1/2 position, the wing indicator travels to the 1/2 position, and tech chat indicates flaps released.  Expected behaviour.  However, in this case, the cockpit flap lever hesitates at the 1/2 position and then continues to the full fwd position.  This is NOT the expected behaviour, lever should stay at the 1/2 position.

From the flaps 1/2 position (flap lever at the incorrect full fwd position, it never remains in the 1/2 position), if the extend function is either tapped or held, nothing happens (not the expected behaviour), except for the flaps release tech chat indication (expected behaviour).  Wing indicator remains at the 1/2 position (flaps are remaining at the 1/2 so these are actually indicating correctly), flap lever remains in the incorrect position (fully fwd vice the 1/2 position).  If the flaps had in fact extended further to the full down position, the cockpit lever would now be indicating correctly.

The expected behaviour here is that the flaps from the 1/2 position SHOULD extend further to the full down position, wing indicator should indicate full down, cockpit flap lever should travel from the 1/2 position to the full fwd position.  The problem here is that once the flaps are at the 1/2 position, they cannot be further extended, without first fully raising them by either tapping or holding the retract function, and then holding the extend function.  I'm pretty sure this was NOT how the flaps were supposed to function.  It makes no sense to have 1/2 flaps (normal for an approach) and then be unable to fully extend them from that position for landing (normal procedure) without first fully raising them.

For the most part, the retract function seems to act as expected, and there does not seem to be a difference between the tap or hold function.  However, in its current state, it is not possible to retract the flaps to the 1/2 flap position from the fully extended position either.  Tapping or holding always fully retracts the flaps, neither technique will cause the flaps to stop at the 1/2 flap position (seems logical to be able to get back to 1/2 flaps from the fully extended position).  The expected behaviour here is that if the retract function is HELD (consistent with the held extend function causing the flaps to extend to the 1/2 position), the flaps will stop at the 1/2 position, the wing indicator will indicate 1/2 position, the tech chat will indicate flaps retract, and the cockpit lever will stop at the 1/2 position.

So, the issue as I see it is that from the 1/2 flap position, further extension is not possible (as one would expect), and the cockpit lever is not indicating the 1/2 position correctly.  The fact that the lever hesitates at the 1/2 position and then continues to the full position may be a clue, as logically if the lever is already (incorrectly) at the full position while the flaps are at the 1/2 position, further extension would not be possible.  The fact that the tech chat indication of flaps release with no corresponding movement of the flaps tells me that the flaps WANT to move, but the incorrect lever position is precluding them from moving.  Also retracting the flaps to the 1/2 position from the fully extended position is not possible.  These issues are likely related, but clearly there is something up with the 1/2 flap position and the flap lever in the cockpit.

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Copy is direct from what I posted back onto the IL2 Forum.  My questions to the squadron are:

Do the way these flaps function in the current update make sense?  If not, how SHOULD they work? Am I missing something?  Shaking my head here...

*Diz shakes head...

[WWSandMan]

I have about 12 minutes total time in the IL-2 aircraft itself, not even sure which model it was. Single-seater I believe. Pretty sure I was shot down quickly, don't think I even bothered to use flaps.

That said, I have no real idea how the Ilyushin developers intended the flaps to oeprate, or if 777 has them modeled correctly.

[WWSittingduck]

I have a distinct recollection of you flying the IL-2 in a WW/JG1 practice for a campaign.  Not the last one we did with them...the one before that.  We had to take out the AA surrounding the enemy airfields, which turned out to be quite impossible.  Also seem to remember something about a convoy that we could never find.  But I was trying to escort you back to home base, and eventually got killed.

[WWDarkdiz]

2 minutes ago, WWSittingduck said:

I have a distinct recollection of you flying the IL-2 in a WW/JG1 practice for a campaign.  Not the last one we did with them...the one before that.  We had to take out the AA surrounding the enemy airfields, which turned out to be quite impossible.  Also seem to remember something about a convoy that we could never find.  But I was trying to escort you back to home base, and eventually got killed.

Hmmm, not me, I don't recall ever flying in a practice for a campaign.  I never flew online IL2, only Aces High and the old Air Warrior (GeNie timeframe, 14.4/28.8k modems on the phone line...)

 

1 hour ago, WWSandMan said:

I have about 12 minutes total time in the IL-2 aircraft itself, not even sure which model it was. Single-seater I believe. Pretty sure I was shot down quickly, don't think I even bothered to use flaps.

That said, I have no real idea how the Ilyushin developers intended the flaps to oeprate, or if 777 has them modeled correctly.

In terms of actually flying the IL2, I don't mind it, it CAN be a lot of fun.  I just like everything that is modelled to be done correctly.  I really believe this is NOT correct, that's why I wanted a second opinion.  I don't think experience flying it is necessary, the flaps sequence just seems really out of whack, even for a Russian plane.

[WWSittingduck]

ops...sorry..was referring to Sandy

[WWSandMan]

11 hours ago, Darkdiz said:

In terms of actually flying the IL2, I don't mind it, it CAN be a lot of fun.  I just like everything that is modelled to be done correctly.  I really believe this is NOT correct, that's why I wanted a second opinion.  I don't think experience flying it is necessary, the flaps sequence just seems really out of whack, even for a Russian plane.

If I get a chance today I'll do some tests to see if I can replicate the flaps handle issue. More for verification than anything else. 

[WWDarkdiz]

2 hours ago, WWSandMan said:

If I get a chance today I'll do some tests to see if I can replicate the flaps handle issue. More for verification than anything else. 

Exactly what I'm looking for, and opinions on if it is actually an issue (bug) or not.

[WWSandMan]

I haven't been able to find any definitive info on how the flap handle operates on the real aircraft (it's Russian, so who knows, that weird movement may be modeled correctly.) And yes, a long press of the flap key will drop the flaps half way. The wing-top flap indicators will stop at half-way, and the flap lever will move to half-way, hesitate, them move forward to the fully deployed position. A fast tap of the flap operation button will fully deploy the flaps, and they do not stop at half-way. Which is bizarre.

[WWDarkdiz]

My thoughts exactly, even for a Russian plane.  Seriously, this is a bug.  You can't go from 1/2 flaps to full flaps without fully retracting flaps first.  Raising flaps at low airspeeds is a recipe for disaster, even for the Russians.

[WWDarkdiz]

Finally got an acceptable answer for this anomaly...

Apparently, the half-flap position is for take-off only.  Based on actual pilot experience level and skill at that time, the aircraft design purposely made it impossible for the pilot to go to full flaps from half flaps.  In typical Russian fashion, since half flaps was used for take-off only, the pilot did not have a choice, he could not inadvertently go to full flaps, the only thing he could do was to raise them to the full up position.  Half flaps was not used for landing, it was all flaps or none.

1 less thing for the rookie newb pilot to think about in a critical regime of flight... full flaps would have been catastrophic when using all power available to get some altitude and speed.